tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post8843959531961615269..comments2024-03-11T13:16:19.098-04:00Comments on Ad Orientem: Sharing the cup: Orthodoxy and inter-communionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-59402776506098258532007-08-25T13:25:00.000-04:002007-08-25T13:25:00.000-04:00Gabriel:The traditionalist Roman Catholic disdain ...Gabriel:<BR/><BR/>The traditionalist Roman Catholic disdain for Orthodoxy often can be overcome on a personal level. My wife and I have as friends a family who attend a SSPV chapel, and we've had conversations where they tell us, "You know, we have to remind ourselves you aren't Catholic," and we've told them, "We have to remind ourselves you aren't Orthodox!" We jokingly refer to ourselves around these people as "the original sedevacantists," and in general we find that we have a much greater common vocabulary than perhaps we would have expected.<BR/><BR/>Of course, the tragedy is that it's precisely because of that that the differences wind up being taken more seriously.<BR/><BR/>RichardRichardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06811467954475057967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-11741624267945139772007-08-24T19:22:00.000-04:002007-08-24T19:22:00.000-04:00Just to dissent a bit...TYG may be right that cert...Just to dissent a bit...<BR/><BR/>TYG may be right that certain segments of Eastern Christianity aren't Monophysites, but that alone isn't enough to say they are in communion with the rest of the Orthodox Church. What goes on in the Middle East is--as he does point out--an exception and the fact they are surrounded by large numbers of people who are hostile to the Christian faith, regardless of its communal affiliation, has more than a little to do with it. Still, just because it happens doesn't make it right, though I'll leave it to the hierarchy of the Church to determine the extent to which these practices are acceptable.<BR/><BR/>As for the picture of American converts, it's a little skewed. I agree that there is anti-Catholic animus within Orthodoxy in America, though it has diverse roots. Orthodox tend to object to liberal Catholics as much as they do to liberal mainline Protestants and, honestly, outside of the pages of <I>First Things</I>, the experience of many Orthodox seems to be with the liberal wings of the Roman Church. Besides, the very traditional Catholics, i.e., those Orthodox might actually have some real common ground with on matters of fidelity to their respective confessions, tend to have no time for the Orthodox. From their vantage point, we are schismatics--end of story.<BR/><BR/>As for the alleged Monophysites/Eastern Christians and their participation in Orthodoxy in the USA, I believe the trend is one of acceptance. The Antiochians have never had any problem communing Copts, Ethiopians, etc., in their parishes--convert or cradle in composition. I know for a fact that at least one diocese of the OCA allows intercommunion so long as permission is given by the ruling hierarch. In my experience, I have certainly never witnessed the disdain towards alleged Monophysites from Orthodox converts in the way I have witnessed it towards standard Roman Catholics or, for that matter, mainline Protestants.G Sanchezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11797757461858023882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-10694319831276083772007-08-23T04:03:00.000-04:002007-08-23T04:03:00.000-04:00Ad Orientum and fellas,Vladimir Putin took out his...Ad Orientum and fellas,<BR/><BR/>Vladimir Putin took out his frustrations recently about the issue being discussed on this thread.<BR/><BR/>http://molonlabe70.blogspot.com/2007/08/confident-emerging-russia-erpresident.htmlSophocleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07923381271179811989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-33691865388320771682007-08-22T18:17:00.000-04:002007-08-22T18:17:00.000-04:00In general, I'm pleased that this didn't deteriora...In general, I'm pleased that this didn't deteriorate into acrimonious accusations of anti-Catholicism. Too much of that going around.<BR/><BR/>RichardRichardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06811467954475057967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-29794749285399917302007-08-19T23:19:00.000-04:002007-08-19T23:19:00.000-04:00Dr. Tighe & TYF,I have heard anecdotally similar r...Dr. Tighe & TYF,<BR/>I have heard anecdotally similar reports which the Young Fogey also speaks of. And I do tend to think that it is only a matter of time before one or more of the Orthodox jurisdictions (probably the Ants) make it official. <BR/><BR/>The whole issue of who one may commune with can get a bit complicated in Orthodoxy since there are groups out there who are certainly Orthodox but also in an irregular relationship with the rest of The Church, i.e. many of your Old Calendarists and until recently ROCOR. To make matters worse some of these groups are not really Orthodox and still others are so far out there that they can be lumped in with the lunatic fringe. It takes a certain amount of discernment to figure out who is merely schismatic and who is a malicious nut case.<BR/><BR/>Thus Ad Orientem's rule that TYF quoted above. When there is some doubt about another group that might be in impaired communion with one's own bishop for reasons other than heresy, another litmus test would be to ask if they are in communion with Constantinople. Although the EP is not the Orthodox Pope, he holds a primacy of honor decreed by a Church Council. Anyone not in communion with the EP is likely someone I would steer clear of, even on an emergency basis.<BR/><BR/>ICXC<BR/>JohnJohn (Ad Orientem)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14329907942477160166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-23429466235329876052007-08-19T21:40:00.000-04:002007-08-19T21:40:00.000-04:00Just about everybody agrees that the Oriental Orth...Just about everybody agrees that the Oriental Orthodox are not really Monophysites after all but estranged Orthodox who don't use the Byzantine Rite. I've been saying for some time echoing Kallistos (Ware) and others that official Oriental Orthodox-Eastern Orthodox reunion is only a matter of time and will happen much sooner than any big East-West reconciliation... because they're both Eastern! It seems that locally with the Antiochians it's happening.<BR/><BR/>The Middle East seems a case of 'when in Rome'. Melkite and Antiochian families - Christian Arabs surrounded by Muslims - identify as one or the other but intermarry, intercommune and have their kids baptised and chrismated at each other's churches all the time and the clergy know it. Also, the custom is for a wife to join her husband's church, regardless. The clergy are fine with that too and nobody is excommunicated. The only division is the clergy don't concelebrate.<BR/><BR/>(The sort of thing that makes doxer-than-thou converts in the US have kittens which is rather fun. 'Graceless Western heretics! Papists!', the fulminations of ex-Protestants who've taken their anti-Roman prejudice with them and reinforce it with the most obnoxious, anti-Western, xenophobic Orthodox reading material they can get their hands on. Not the same as a civil, charitable difference of opinion about the origin and scope of the papacy.)<BR/><BR/>That said, the Orthodox situation in the US is different, rather like the Roman Catholic Church used to be. Unlike the laid-back approach of Italians and Hispanics for example, American RCs were rule-enforcers. 'Rules are made by Rome and enforced in the United States.' (Which is why Europeans were really shocked by the massive rebellion in America after Vatican II!) Anyway in America the Orthodox enforce the rule against intercommunion so to avoid scandal (unlike in the Lebanon and Syria where it's accepted) don't do it!<BR/><BR/>Some well-meaning high-church Byzantine Catholics, not liberals theologically, seem to adopt a kind of antinomianism about this (ecclesiological liberalism regarding the sacraments) which seems wrong even though one can point to the Middle East as precedent looking at this logically. So essentially I agree with you: no, it's not OK for an isolated Orthodox to commune with the local Byzantine Catholics (or vice versa) unless he intends to formally change churches by so doing. This isn't Damascus or Beirut - that's how it works in the States.<BR/><BR/><I>Is the church/parish you wish to commune in itself "in communion" with your bishop? If the answer is "no" then do not do it, unless it is your intention to sever communion with him.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly.Ecgberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354592772973677609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-53933387059475051862007-08-19T13:59:00.000-04:002007-08-19T13:59:00.000-04:00An Antiochian Orthodox priest with whom I am acqua...An Antiochian Orthodox priest with whom I am acquainted told me some five years ago that either his bishop or Metropolitan Philip had given his clergy firm orders, albeit without publicity, that Armenians, Copts and any other "Oriental Orthodox" that presented themselves for communion, or requested communion, were to be treated in every respect as though they were fellow "Orthodox Christians."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com