tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post8772509982182683706..comments2024-03-11T13:16:19.098-04:00Comments on Ad Orientem: Some general advice to inquirers and those contemplating Holy OrthodoxyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-65982186824314193962009-08-12T16:18:32.193-04:002009-08-12T16:18:32.193-04:00The inquirer's/recent convert thread is a wond...The inquirer's/recent convert thread is a wonderful idea. Thanks for the sage advice.<br /><br />In Christ,<br />MaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-90430528410790796832009-07-17T17:52:58.702-04:002009-07-17T17:52:58.702-04:00Anon, for all of its "catholicity", the ...Anon, for all of its "catholicity", the West folded. How many Orthodox would deny that? <br /><br />You're replacing lameness of the internet with the lameness of ecumenism. An edifying exchange?Visibiliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00069726201789314963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-10402937867510061752009-07-17T15:49:08.784-04:002009-07-17T15:49:08.784-04:00Annie - Take what you read on the internet about O...Annie - Take what you read on the internet about Orthodoxy with a grain of salt. The Church east and west was Orthodox for 1000 years - in the fullness of its catholicity. If you are comfortable with what you find in that, don't shy away. Find a priest and parish who isn't obsessed with the perfectness/absolute correctness of Byzantium - probably the vast majority of parishes in fact - and grow with God. Enjoy these sites for what they are, but don't take them for more. There is a mainstream critique of Augustine in Orthodox circles, which is all well and good if you enjoy philosophizing, but no one is going to suggest that to be Orthodox you must hold to that critique. The Church is there to serve God, to seek communion with Him and to worship Him in spirit and in truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-4566523177493510322009-07-17T08:59:41.337-04:002009-07-17T08:59:41.337-04:00Thanks, Orrologion.Thanks, Orrologion.Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00190609498615712416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-4014158805803565522009-07-16T20:01:14.700-04:002009-07-16T20:01:14.700-04:00John, I forgive you, of course.
Orr, thanks for r...John, I forgive you, of course.<br /><br />Orr, thanks for riding to my rescue. You're my hero.Visibiliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00069726201789314963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-29403942155959181082009-07-16T10:21:06.166-04:002009-07-16T10:21:06.166-04:00Annie,
Sorry if you took offense. It was specifi...Annie,<br /><br />Sorry if you took offense. It was specifically because I did not want to presume that I repeated John's advice. I don't know if you do these things, I don't know if you don't. I do know they are important to the Orthodox way. I also did not mean to imply that you shouldn't think, just that there are dangers (for all of us, all humankind, me first) in mistaking thinking about the Faith as either faith, the Faith itself, or salvation. Please, keep thinking; I am glad it seems you are not just thinking alone. May the Lord, His mother and the saints bless your inquiry.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-51832037157068473722009-07-16T10:13:22.322-04:002009-07-16T10:13:22.322-04:00"It's easy to mistake talk and thought ab..."It's easy to mistake talk and thought about the Faith for the Faith."<br /><br />I think. I have no intention of stopping.<br /><br />I would also respectfully remind you that you have no idea as to whether I pray, fast, or attend Orthodox liturgies because, well, I haven't told you any of that. You presume. Please do not. <br /><br />I am not troubled by the inconvenience of Orthodoxy. We're talking about salvation here. Inconvenience doesn't enter into it.<br /><br />I have been considering a specific set of questions because, like I said, that's what I do, by nature and by training. I decided to ask some of them here because it seemed like a welcoming space, which is not something that can be said of all Orthodox blogs. And I do read quite a few.<br /><br />Thank you those of you who replied to what I had to say. You gave me a lot of useful information. I'm especially grateful for the reference to the Hodges book.Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00190609498615712416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-48186233705655220242009-07-15T23:52:17.724-04:002009-07-15T23:52:17.724-04:00Or
Thanks for the note. That makes sense. It sou...Or<br />Thanks for the note. That makes sense. It sounded at my first reading like the sort of thing I would expect from some snobby social club. And I confess that I bristled a bit at that. Obviously I was mistaken. <br /><br />Visibilium,<br />Please forgive me. <br /><br />That said I do think a little clarification is in order. Obviously becoming Orthodox is a serious matter and one that should not be taken lightly. Inquirers need to be aware that it is the most important commitment they will ever make. If I have a major complaint it is that the period of the catechumenate is often too short. Too many people are being received into the Church too quickly and without proper discernment. Orthodoxy is indeed an inconvenient faith. But it is the path to salvation and we do have a divine mandate to preach the Orthodox Christian Faith and receive all who will embrace it. The Church is not just for the righteous thank God. <br /><br />Under the mercy,<br />JohnUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10287869065229343442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-63832995952502124662009-07-15T23:24:42.768-04:002009-07-15T23:24:42.768-04:00I took his comment that "Orthodoxy isn't ...I took his comment that "Orthodoxy isn't a convenient religion. Maybe you'd be better off somewhere else--unless you absolutely can't stay away from us" to be similar to a monastic tonsure. It is the angelic life. It is a way of lifer higher than the married or single state. However, the abbot throws the scissors used in the tonsure across the room - essentially, to stop the tonsure. The novice has to return the scissors to the abbot freely, personally. He has to demand the tonsure because he "absolutely can't stay away" from such a life.<br /><br />I agree it is better to remain without the Church, than to enter Her only then to leave.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-78881318457779407452009-07-15T23:13:02.718-04:002009-07-15T23:13:02.718-04:00Visibilium,
If some of the comments on this thread...Visibilium,<br />If some of the comments on this thread sounds like they are from inquirers, it's likely because that is who my post was directed to. I am not trying to be judgmental here, but I am somewhat curious about your interpretation of the Great Commission. From your posts here and on some other forums it seems you have very little use for converts. And for the record I have no plans on leaving the Church.<br /><br />In ICXC<br />JohnUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10287869065229343442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-71573197189440053492009-07-15T22:52:39.342-04:002009-07-15T22:52:39.342-04:00Ad,
Thanks for sharing. My remarks were targeted...Ad, <br /><br />Thanks for sharing. My remarks were targeted specifically at those folks who expressed uncertainty about Orthodoxy. They sounded like enquirers.<br /><br />By the way, I'm not too concerned whether any particular person converts to Orthodoxy. Owing to its inconvenience--fasts, services, dearth of parishes, dearth of prospective spouses, ethnic chauvinism, etc.--Orthodoxy imposes a burden with which not all folks are comfortable. Not converting is preferable to apostasy.<br /><br />If you left Orthodoxy, I probably wouldn't continue to comment on your blog. Maybe that'll prove sufficient incentive to go...or stay...or not.Visibiliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00069726201789314963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-22817282402666677242009-07-15T22:08:33.294-04:002009-07-15T22:08:33.294-04:00Visibilium,
Was there someone to whom you were add...Visibilium,<br />Was there someone to whom you were addressing in particular? Or were you just encouraging everyone to stay out or get out of the Orthodox Church?John (Ad Orientem)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14329907942477160166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-52998803253736015172009-07-15T21:11:56.767-04:002009-07-15T21:11:56.767-04:00Orthodoxy isn't a convenient religion. Maybe y...Orthodoxy isn't a convenient religion. Maybe you'd be better off somewhere else--unless you absolutely can't stay away from us. Good luck.Visibiliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00069726201789314963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-62977588263903202012009-07-15T18:01:49.244-04:002009-07-15T18:01:49.244-04:00Dr. Tighe,
Thank you for your always welcome comme...Dr. Tighe,<br />Thank you for your always welcome comments.<br /><br />Yours,<br />JohnJohn (Ad Orientem)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14329907942477160166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-46236286852297012892009-07-15T17:46:21.496-04:002009-07-15T17:46:21.496-04:00And, on a different matter, "Death Bredon&quo...And, on a different matter, "Death Bredon" is well enough acquainted with Orthodoxy, since he is someone who, raised Orthodox, became an Anglican.William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-4822429766457713832009-07-15T17:44:50.546-04:002009-07-15T17:44:50.546-04:00If a non-Orthodox may venture a suggestion, partic...If a non-Orthodox may venture a suggestion, particularly on the fraught matter of "Byzantinism" and Orthodoxy, one might do worse than to read (especially if one has an Anglican background) the wonderful little booklet *Anglicanism and Orthodoxy* by H. A. Hodges (1955). Hodges' hope that Anglican churches might slowly converge with Orthodoxy by assimilating Orthodoxy is a classical "road not taken," but his booklet retains its interest. Unfortunately it is rare, but there is a copy here:<br /><br />http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=hodges&sts=t&tn=anglicanism+and+orthodoxy&x=67&y=14<br /><br />or you might go to the seller's site directly:<br /><br />http://www.antiqbook.com/books/bkslrsearch.phtml?su=website&Language=en&owner_id=rosema&sAuthor=hodges&sTitle=anglicanism+and+orthodoxy&sKeyword=&sFirstName=&input=+Search+William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-4095748636624720032009-07-15T16:17:23.209-04:002009-07-15T16:17:23.209-04:00The truth in its fullness.
Interesting quote from...The truth in its fullness.<br /><br />Interesting quote from the former head of ROCOR:<br /><br />http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2009/06/towards-salvation-in-his-own-way.html<br /><br />The Orthodox view of the non-Orthodox - and the reasoning behind those stances (very similar to the early Church's wrangling over how to deal with self-identifying 'Christians' outside of the Church) - can also be found in these documents:<br /><br />http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2009/05/basic-principles-of-attitude-to-non.html<br /><br />http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/non-orthodox.pdf<br /><br />But, I would review John's advice:<br /><br />1. First you need to find an Orthodox parish church and start attending services.<br /><br />2. Pray.<br /><br />3. Fast to the best of your ability under the guidance of your spiritual father.<br /><br />4. Don’t dive into theology. Read the lives of the saints.<br /><br />7. Avoid (online) disputations and arguments.<br /><br />It's easy to mistake talk and thought about the Faith for the Faith.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-51869779442161481582009-07-15T15:59:06.377-04:002009-07-15T15:59:06.377-04:00Just a question of clarification: The faith surviv...Just a question of clarification: The faith survived nowhere else but in the areas you name? And by that do you mean the whole faith intact? Or that there is no truth to be found elsewhere, even mixed with error?Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00190609498615712416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-38308129361750250222009-07-15T15:36:13.118-04:002009-07-15T15:36:13.118-04:00What jars is the need for things to be Byzantine a...<i>What jars is the need for things to be Byzantine and maybe the presumption that something is true because it's Byzantine (or seems so) or that another thing is false simply because it's Western or Latin or whatever. My understanding of things isn't that Orthodoxy is untrue or problematic, but that being Byzantine (or not) is not what makes something true or false.</i><br /><br />Actually, Orthodoxy is the touchstone. Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Georgians and Orthodox Arabs are not Byzantine (one could make the case that neither are modern Greeks, either, but...), though the Church that survived and flourished in Byzantium has had its effect on those peoples. Still, they are not Byzantine. I am not Byzantine. They and I are Orthodox.<br /><br />Death Bredon's first points are pertinent here because they betray a lack of understanding when it comes to the organic nature of the Church as a body. Just because something was 'Orthodox' at one point in history doesn't mean we can turn the clock back, pick that practice or teaching up, and start using it again today torn from its proper context, from its organic link in the process of traditioning on the Faith. There are innumerable examples of past terms or phrases, practices that were or were not Orthodox, but were than either accepted or rejected by the Church; we cannot jump over these facts without placing ourselves in a position over and above those ancient authorities. It would be arrogant to do so, but it also assumes they were stupid and we are not; that we have more data that has survived than they had at their fingertips; that we understand their own language and culture better than they did.<br /><br />The Church is traditioned on from generation to generation organically. The Body of Christ grows is wisdom and stature, yet without change as did the body and person of Jesus Christ from his conception at the Annunciation through his birth adolescence, adulthood, suffering, death and resurrection - changing, but always the same Person. Same with the Church. It would be inappropriate for Christ to have begun acting like an infant as an adult, or to have acted in adult ways (e.g., reading in the synagogue) before he came of age. Same with the Church. Same reason why we no longer celebrate a Jewish Pascha; we celebrate the fulfilled, Christian Pascha.<br /><br />The Orthodox Faith has come down to us in the body of Byzantium via the bodies of Russia, Greece, Georgia, etc. The particularities of Christ's maleness, Jewishness, his 1st century-ness, etc. do not minimize his universality; the marks of his life (and death) remained on his body after his resurrection. So, too, do the marks of the Church's sojourn remain today. The Church is not limited to these marks, to its particularities, but they do remain and are part and parcel with the content of the Faith. It survived nowhere else. The particularities of other churches swamped the ark of the Church there.<br /><br />The 'Byzantine Rite' is universal. Alaskan natives, American converts of all kinds from all backgrounds, Siberian nomads, Slavs of all kinds, ancient Georgians, latin Romanians, Greeks, Arabs, sub-Saharan Africans, etc. None are Byzantine.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-34266849231392214822009-07-15T15:20:01.691-04:002009-07-15T15:20:01.691-04:00Annie,
SVS Press has an interesting book out abou...Annie,<br /><br />SVS Press has an interesting book out about Orthodox readings of Augustine - many/most are not Orthodox, but they are all highly learned. Even there, one sees that Augustine can be the great Rorschach test where everyone sees what they want to see in the man. It gets even more convoluted (on all sides) when Augustine's 'influence' on later ideas and movements is discussed.<br /><br />Take 'the West' as pop shorthand for intimations and hints at truths that are difficult to explain, but readily understood. There is something different; call it the West, call it modernism, americanization, latinization, papalism, Thomism, the Carolingians, etc. There is something different going on between East and West and lay pseudo-intellectuals such as myself think an undergrad course or two and a few extracurricularly read books means we somehow know what the heck we're talking about.<br /><br />As was once said about the Catholic Church can be said of the Orthodox Church: "Here comes everybody". There is not a monolithic 'culture' or 'level' in Orthodoxy as a whole - though one finds certain 'kinds' and 'types' among converts, different immigrant groups, etc. Rich, poor, educated, uneducated, suburban, urban, parochial, globalist, liberal, conservative, acerbic, mean, kind, loving, patient, intellectual, mystical, prayerful, poseurs, punks, hippies, etc.<br /><br />If it took John 25 years to convert, you can imagine the felt need to come up with some sort of shorthand answer for off the cuff questions about 'Why are you Orthodox?" and "How is that different than the Catholic Church?" It's hard to explain 25 years worth of struggle into an answer that isn't TMI (too much information). "The West" and "Augustine" often act as placeholders here.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-9681267271813111782009-07-15T15:19:29.106-04:002009-07-15T15:19:29.106-04:00Okay, so I say East because the folks I've tal...Okay, so I say East because the folks I've talked to tend to say East. Based on your comment here, I mean Byzantine.<br /><br />Here's the thing. Because my intellectual background is Latin, I considered the Roman Catholic Church long before I ever even thought about Orthodoxy. I came to a lot of right thinking by that road, actually. Eventually, though, I found that there were some Roman Catholic "distinctives" that didn't seem right, precisely because they are distinctive theologically and therefore are not what Christians have always believed. I have in mind chiefly the Immaculate Conception, although there are many other points of both doctrine and practice that we think are innovative and off-track. <br /><br />My husband and I decided we couldn't be Roman Catholic for that reason. <br /><br />The story is quite different with Orthodoxy. With one exception (which I'll talk about in a second), I can't seem to find anything of substance in Orthodoxy that I can't accept. On the contrary, I continually have a reaction like "Yes, that is what I think already" or "That's more clearly articulated than how I was thinking and I agree with it." What jars is the need for things to be Byzantine and maybe the presumption that something is true because it's Byzantine (or seems so) or that another thing is false simply because it's Western or Latin or whatever. My understanding of things isn't that Orthodoxy is untrue or problematic, but that being Byzantine (or not) is not what makes something true or false.<br /><br />My only outstanding theological question has to do with the filioque. It obviously shouldn't be in the creed, but I don't have a good grasp of the theology behind it and attempts at conversation around this have not been fruitful where folks have relied on some variation of it's wrong because it's Western or the accusation that I'm wrong to want to understand an Orthodox account of the Trinity because God is a mystery. I know God is a mystery. I want a better understanding of how an Orthodox description of the procession of the Spirit fits with the more general understanding of God as Triune. That's all. If it matters that we don't pray the filioque, I want to know why.<br /><br />Thanks for your reply to my comment. I have been interested in the Western Rite, although I'm only beginning to learn about it. I can see where it has positive value, but also needs to be navigated very carefully. There are certainly some pretty apparent pitfalls. We're Anglo-Catholic, so it appeals, but we also know that people stuff a lot of things under the heading Anglo-Catholic that don't belong there--often by appealing to an earlier "Celtic" tradition. I would suspect the same sorts of things happen under the Western Rite.<br /><br />I was typing this as you posted your comment re: Augustine. Thank you for the referral to Energetic Processions. I shall perhaps address my filioque questions to them. <br /><br />I know plenty of later distortions and heresies have been founded on a certain reading of Augustine, and I think there is much valid criticism to be made there. He just isn't wrong *all* the time. That's all I'm saying. :)Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00190609498615712416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-67262869899676407412009-07-15T15:14:07.918-04:002009-07-15T15:14:07.918-04:00A quick follow up to my last post since I see that...A quick follow up to my last post since I see that Annie posted a comment as I was typing mine.<br /><br />Blessed Augustine is a saint of the Orthodox Church. However we tend to commemorate him more for his spirituality and personal sanctity than his theological opinions. Of those it must be said frankly that many of his views are highly controversial in Orthodoxy and some are rejected outright.<br /><br />I don't want to get off topic (this is not intended to be an East West doctrinal thread), so I will confine myself to noting that many of Augustine's writings, especially on Grace and Sin are seen as being in some ways the foundation for many of the Western Church's theological divergences from Orthodoxy. If you want to discuss this in more detail I would suggest contacting either Perry Robinson or Photios Jones who run the excellent blog Energetic Processions, which you will find linked in the sidebar of the blog. They are among the most knowledgeable people I know of when it comes to this topic. I will however caution that both have a reputation for being somewhat direct in their mode of communication. But if you enjoy a good discussion on really serious East-West doctrinal topics that's where to go.<br /><br />That said I have great respect for Augustine and for personal reasons I still count his "Confessions" as one of the most moving works I have ever read.<br /><br />Yours under the mercy,<br />JohnJohn (Ad Orientem)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14329907942477160166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-52226085094693642442009-07-15T14:58:26.972-04:002009-07-15T14:58:26.972-04:00I am glad to meet someone who took quarter of a ce...I am glad to meet someone who took quarter of a century to convert, it makes my own 16 years look respectable ;)margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07727534908302610374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-49587160232284815302009-07-15T14:56:13.390-04:002009-07-15T14:56:13.390-04:00Annie,
I think we need to clarify a term before pr...Annie,<br />I think we need to clarify a term before proceeding to the meat of your comment. "East" is a good starting point. By East do you mean "Byzantine" or "Orthodox?" If the former I think you will find some sympathy among many Orthodox. <br /><br />I am one of a minority of Orthodox who tend to think that sometimes we put too much emphasis on the Byzantine Rite. Yes, there are people who have honest difficulty embracing Orthodoxy because the Byzantine Rite is frankly alien to them. And too many Orthodox confuse the Byzantine Rite with Orthodoxy, believing you can't have the latter without the former. That's rubbish. With apologies to my patron Saint John Maximovitch "The West was Orthodox for a thousand years. And her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."<br /><br />To which end I am a cautious supporter of what is called the Western Rite. That said I attach a lot of caveats to that support. That's because in some instances Western Rite parishes have attempted to repackage things which are not Orthodox and say they are because they are under the Western Rite. <br /><br />I am a big believer in enforcing the essentials, but not placing more barriers in front of a prospective convert than we need to. It needs to be remembered that there was never a moment in the history of the pre-schism church where East and West were in 100% agreement. Communion was preserved through charity and a tolerance for some diversity of opinion and praxis as long as the essentials were Orthodox. That said, the history of the Western Rite has had its ups and downs and I think we need to be careful about importing too many things from the contemporary Christian West which are theologically dicey. Which brings me to the second possible interpretation of "East."<br /><br />If by East you really meant "Orthodox" then we have some issues, because Orthodoxy is not negotiable. The Church is not a theological buffet. And while there is a regrettable tendency among some to conflate the term "Western" with "heresy" it nonetheless remains true that much of what has cropped up in the Western Christian tradition is problematic from an Orthodox perspective.<br /><br />Of course there are the uber-Orthodox who are so virulently anti-Western that they are almost a caricature. One suspects they judge the correctness of something by establishing the exact longitude of its origin. Frankly I just laugh at them. Back before I became Orthodox I remember a conversation with an Old Calendarist. It went something like this.<br /><br />John: What is wrong with the the Gregorian calendar?<br /><br />OC: It is heretical.<br /><br />John: Why is that?<br /><br />OC: Because it's western.<br /><br />John: (looks at watch) This was made in in the United States. Is my watch heretical?<br /><br />That was about the end of the conversation as I recall. Sadly I can't do that again. I don't wear a watch anymore. But I digress...<br /><br />The bottom line of this rather long and rambling comment is that the Orthodox Church is... well Orthodox. And if becoming Orthodox is an impediment to joining the Church (and for some people it is) there is not much we can do about that except pray in love and charity.<br /><br />Yours under the mercy,<br />JohnJohn (Ad Orientem)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14329907942477160166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25740524.post-23020110431472507122009-07-15T14:50:06.826-04:002009-07-15T14:50:06.826-04:00I don't know that the people I'm conversin...I don't know that the people I'm conversing with have been quite where I am. I come to this conversation with a graduate background in Latin patristics. I run into a lot of "I've never really read Augustine but..." followed by an account of something Augustine is supposed to think that, well, is not always something that could be supported from textual evidence. Not to harp on Augustine, because he's an unfortunate distraction in conversations like these. But that's a major frustration. It isn't that I think Augustine is right on every point--he's obviously wrong when it comes to original sin--but if he says, for instance, that the operation of the Trinity is unified, he is in agreement with Greek patristic writers and he is speaking truth. Ergo, not everything that was written in Latin is outright heresy.<br /><br />The point is that "The West" is lousy shorthand. I wouldn't even be raising this if it hadn't come up in literally every conversation I've ever had with an Orthodox person.<br /><br />I guess I appreciate the desire to trace current obvious distortions in Roman Catholic teaching to some historical source, but the resulting narrative unsettles me a great deal. It's frustrating intellectually, which is the less important issue. What unsettles me more is that it seems to undermine the Orthodox claim to true catholicity. And since true catholicity is what I'm after....it does grate. And it quite literally always comes up, generally as a way of explaining to me that I don't know anything.<br /><br />The advice to just embrace it and find out if it really is or isn't...well, that's all complicated by family issues. As a married woman with children, I'm not exactly at my leisure to convert just whenever I feel like it.Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00190609498615712416noreply@blogger.com