Russian TU 160 Heavy BomberLONDON, April 16 (UPI) -- Russia is increasingly flexing its military muscles by penetrating Western airspace.Read the rest here.
European defense officials have been worried about an increasing number of Russian bombers entering Western airspace.
A pair of Tupolev Tu-160 Blackjack bombers -- the largest jet-powered combat aircraft ever built, capable of carrying nuclear missiles -- last month entered British airspace over Northern Scotland, Deutsche Welle reports.
Two Tornado fighter jets from the British air force intercepted the supersonic bombers, accompanying them for four hours until they left British airspace.
This is intolerable. No self respecting nation can permit its sovereignty to be so flagrantly abused. I wonder how uncle Vlady would react if we "accidentally" overflew Russian airspace for four(!) hours with a couple of strategic bombers?
As much as I detest the whole Jack Van Impe thing, when I see things like this, and the support for Irans nukes I start second guessing myself. Add the churches involvement with the government and it really freaks me out.
ReplyDeleteThis is intolerable! What's next, drone flights into sovereign Pakistan?
ReplyDeleterabidgandhi,
ReplyDeleteI was unaware that Britain was permitting its territory to be used by terrorists plotting attacks on neighboring countries and Russia.
In ICXC
John
Plaes from Turkey fly into Greek air space every single day. It costs the Greek Air Force a fortune.
ReplyDeleteTurkey should be told very firmly to stop doing that. Respect for national sovereignty is something that is not optional. If you are entering someone else's territory with a military forces that is a t the very least a serious provocation and it could easily be deemed an act of war.
ReplyDeleteBack in the 1980's there were a dozen or so confirmed intrusions into Swedish territorial waters by submarines of "unknown" national origin. After this went on for a while the Swedes published a warning to every country with a navy, that they would sink anymore submarines found in their waters. Not long after that a submarine was reported near the entrance to their main naval base and helicopters along with a Swedish naval destroyer dropped depth charges or the modern version there of.
The sub got away. But that was also the last time they had that problem.
So you're implying the US has accused Pakistan of harboring terrorists, issued an ultimatum, and declared war? As flimsy as the grounds were for trampling on the "sovereignty" of Iraq and Afghanistan, even less of those bellicose niceties have been followed in the case of Pakistan.
ReplyDeleteAs for "If you are entering someone else's territory with a military forces that is at the very least a serious provocation and it could easily be deemed an act of war." I assume this means you want the US and their British tag-alongs to withdraw their military bases from Japan, Colombia, Cyprus, Cuba, Krgyzistan... Goodness instead of reprimanding the Turks for airspace incursions, Clinton Bush and Obama have given them more planes to do so.
rabidgandhi,
ReplyDelete"So you're implying the US has accused Pakistan of harboring terrorists,"
Not implying anything. Stating it very clearly. It is a matter of public record.
"issued an ultimatum, and declared war?"
Yes and no. Pakistan has been told to deal with the problem or we will. To at last some degree Pakistan appears unable to handle the situation. Are you implying that we are obligated to allow foreign terrorist groups to operate with impunity because they are in another country that can not or will not deal with them? It certainly sounds that way to me.
"As flimsy as the grounds were for trampling on the "sovereignty" of Iraq... "
No argument there. Iraq was a war of aggression and we were wrong. That said there is an old saying, if you break it, you own it. We can't just walk into someone else's country, tear it up and then say "ooops we made a mistake we will be leaving now." We need to leave Iraq with a functional government. That said I also believe we have accomplished that and it is now time to go.
"...and Afghanistan"
Here you are overreaching big time. If you don't grasp the difference between Afghanistan and Iraq you have been drinking too much of the lefty and or isolationist cool aid. The United States was ATTACKED by terrorists operating in Afghanistan with the knowledge and material support of the de facto government of that country. They WERE given an ultimatum and Congress DID pass the constitutional equivalent to a Declaration of War. The UN also sanctioned military action. Sorry you loose on this one unless you are arguing that there is no right to national self defense. All of the niceties of international law were scrupulously observed before we struck back at that nest of vipers.
Continued below
Continued from above
ReplyDelete"As for "If you are entering someone else's territory with a military forces that is at the very least a serious provocation and it could easily be deemed an act of war." I assume this means you want the US and their British tag-alongs to withdraw their military bases from Japan, Colombia, Cyprus, Cuba, Kyrgyzstan..."
Hmmm In case you missed the memo we are in Japan at the invitation of the Japanese government with whom we have a military defense alliance. Given their proximity to N. Korea and China I rather imagine they would be rather annoyed with us if we simply left. I know of no military bases of ours in Columbia or Cyprus. But if we are there without their permission then we need to leave. We have a lease for the base in Cuba. I personally think we should leave. But there is nothing unlawful about our presence there. Likewise Kyrgyzstan has just confirmed its lease for the airbase. Again, what's the problem here?
"Goodness instead of reprimanding the Turks for airspace incursions, Clinton Bush and Obama have given them more planes to do so."
Unfortunately Turkey is part of NATO. They have been very helpful in the past on some issues. But that has no bearing on the subject at hand.
All I am seeing in your spray and pray comment is evidence suggesting that you are either very ill informed on history and international law or your trying to make a lot of straw man arguments in the (forlorn) hope that I am. In the interest of time let's try and avoid that if possible. And let's also try and stay on topic. If you want to defend uninvited military incursions into the territory of other countries with whom you are not at war and who are not harboring hostile entities then by all means do so. But let's not go wandering all over the map in the hopes of finding some instance where we have violated other country's sovereignty. If that's your point, I will readily concede that such has happened in the past. And no its not right. But again, I am not sure of your point, unless you are arguing that the protections of international law no longer apply to the United States or our allies.
In ICXC
John
John,
ReplyDeleteForgive me if my longwindedness brought us all over the map. In brief, your OP seemed to say that it was an outrage for the Russian military to be in someone else's airspace. I thought that ironic coming from an American, seeing as the US military is (by your own admission) guilty of the same outrage. I brought up Pakistan because the US has not bothered to submit any proof that someone attacking them is being sheltered by the Pakistani gov't, but continues to bomb without permission. Since we agree, though, that powerful states such as the US and Russia have trampled and will continue to trample on the sovereignty of others, we are on the same page.
cheers, Gandhi
Of course, Greece is also a member of NATO.
ReplyDeleteAnd the EU.
Have to agree: pot calling the kettle black. If international law is the standard, the US has a lot more than Russia to answer for.
ReplyDeleteLet's just talk about how stupid it is to do it. You fly a nuclear capable bomber into another nations airspace there is room for a tragic error that could escalate. I know what you are talking about when China downed our P-3 Orion in international airspce and held the crew hostage Bush nuked two Chinese cities. Oh wait the hawk Bush flippin' apologized to them.
ReplyDeleteRussia is such a non player they are just trying to get attention. They could barely take Georgia. Their nukes are the only thing that could stop the EU or America from doing what ever they want. The times are getting more dangerous not less and yes America has fault in that. We have forgotten how to fight wars. If there isn't a strong power people have confidence in or respect for you are going to see the worst of human nature. I know Russia isn't going to worry about the names of it's military operations offending the people they are killing, that isn't so with America.
The United States was ATTACKED by terrorists operating in Afghanistan with the knowledge and material support of the de facto government of that country. They WERE given an ultimatum and Congress DID pass the constitutional equivalent to a Declaration of War.
ReplyDeleteThe US accused bin Laden and asked the government of Afghanistan to hand him over. The Afghan government asked for proof. Our response was the invasion and overthrow of the Afghan government. If we're going to get on an international law high horse, the invasion of Afghanistan is extremely problematic.
Which, frankly, is why the US should take the position that there is no such thing as "international law."