In case there remained any doubt. See also the favorable write up at the The Episcopal Cafe. Every time I think I have reached a point where I am impervious to any further shock from them, they prove me wrong. Words fail me.
Oh look! Jesus made the cut, how generous of them! His father didn't though. He is probably tainted with all that OT blood. That would probably be too difficult to explain to the parishioners. Though I'm a bit curious about why his nimbus says "'W ON"... it must be a misprint...
It is on a web site run by ECUSA. By the way, notice how the artist included not just any pagan subject that came to mind, but also an "icon" of Mohammad? Oh dear...Now if you offend every Christian on earth you get a disgusted shrug. But if you recall "Draw Mohammad day" a while back you might recall that people can put themselves in mortal danger by offending another large religious group. It could put her and others at risk like driving blindfolded on the freeway.
Unadulterated evil. I visited Grace Cathedral in San Francisco last year on a lark: icons of Harvey Milk and Martin Luther King. I was shocked speechless. Also in San Francisco, Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal organization has icons of (amongst other sacriledges) an icon of Malcom X. (Nathaniel, the Father may not be depicted in icons by Orthodox canon law, so you are off the mark there.)
Pray for anyone that is exposed to the Episcopal organization and other protestant organizations.
Your "shock" is only for show to please your own egos.
Heteronomic thinking has you all in thrall.
I wouldn't place all these personages or figures as equals but I do recognize the attempt to go beyond the petty sectarian thinking that's crippling civilization.
You all should do some reading, lots of reading and become aware that there are traditions and ways of religions with some insights that could actually help you undestand your own tradition better.
After all, Melchisedech wasn't a Jew, nor were the Magi.
I think anonymous is wise. It's possible this iconostasis, with it's pantheon of pagan and anti-Christian religious figures, could help Christians understand our own tradition better.
That part of our tradition where we go in and take an axe to idolatrous art. Or a torch.
Hey, Anon, I got an idea for you to do missionary work. You have the link to the "Muhammad" icon. Email it to Al Jazeera. Tell them it's to help them understand their own tradition better. You'll get back to us with the response, y'hear?
Anonymous, regarding your response to my comment about the Father being "missing":
1. The point was that it depicts other deities, but not the Father. I was not suggesting that the Father should be depicted in proper Orthodox iconography. I was suggesting that if you are going to go so far as to depict every other deity (certainly not permitted by the canons!), leaving out the Father is not done out of fealty to the canon but out of an ideological commitment, aka heresy.
2. Which canon prohibits the depicting of the Father? I am not aware of one that expressly forbids it. Certainly it is implied in the theology of St John Damascene, but I doubt its verbotten.
3. Once you find that canon, you'd better mail it to Mt Athos immediately so that they can start burning all their icons of the Trinity that depict the Father. You should probably carbon-copy Moscow too so that they can white-wash Christ the Savior Cathedral (http://www.scamconsult.com/Trinity.jpg).
Pleasing our own egos? Seriously? This from someone whose first response is to ASSume that none of us have read about other religious traditions?
How sad. Sadder still that you cannot take a serious look at why we might have objections to such an "iconostasis" (I use quotes because in reality, it is nothing of the sort, being instead an idolatrous monstrosity designed to equate the Triune God with the deities worshiped by the other traditions you reference). It makes one wonder whether it is you that should do the reading.
Anon - I for one absolutely believe that any icons depicting the Father on Athos should be destroyed. I've worshipped in Christ the Savior and believe the image should be removed. Question: do you believe differently?
It would be more constructive to think seriously about who exactly was *left out* of this great spiritual resource. I would have included icons of: 1) Oprah 2) Elvis* 3) Kramer 4) Trigger 5) Sarah Palin 6) Betty Crocker
The list of great spiritual masters is of course endless.
*Who, like Elijah can represent the living and the dead?
Anon - I'm sure it will all be better once your type have their way and everyone just believes in some vague unitarian mushiness that makes them happy. Once there is no such thing as morality left in the world, once truth disappears and becomes an archaic concept and right and wrong are just whatever anyone wants it to be, I'm sure things will be much better.
It is not 'sectarian' thinking that is crippling civilization (if we can call it such anymore - a 41% abortion rate in the NY, the enlightened capital of the western world?). Rather we see that the further we move away from the Light of Christ, the worse things are. I don't expect as saturated as you are with the world that you will understand, but I hope one day you will.
It all makes my stomach do flip-flops. And did you see Christ's hand? Doesn't looks like a blessing as much as a Buddhist or Hindu way of holding the hands during prayer. Angela
Barf!
ReplyDeleteI don't think this is in any way officially sanctioned by the Episcopal Church.
ReplyDeleteOh look! Jesus made the cut, how generous of them! His father didn't though. He is probably tainted with all that OT blood. That would probably be too difficult to explain to the parishioners. Though I'm a bit curious about why his nimbus says "'W ON"... it must be a misprint...
ReplyDeletesarcasm:off
It is on a web site run by ECUSA. By the way, notice how the artist included not just any pagan subject that came to mind, but also an "icon" of Mohammad? Oh dear...Now if you offend every Christian on earth you get a disgusted shrug. But if you recall "Draw Mohammad day" a while back you might recall that people can put themselves in mortal danger by offending another large religious group. It could put her and others at risk like driving blindfolded on the freeway.
ReplyDeleteUmm... are you sure Archer? From what I've seen, there is nothing that is NOT "officially sanctioned by the Episcopal Church."
ReplyDeleteEven Lilith is shown, the goddess who devours infants.
ReplyDeleteThese are evil days. Surely, the Lord's coming approaches!
Unadulterated evil. I visited Grace Cathedral in San Francisco last year on a lark: icons of Harvey Milk and Martin Luther King. I was shocked speechless. Also in San Francisco, Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal organization has icons of (amongst other sacriledges) an icon of Malcom X. (Nathaniel, the Father may not be depicted in icons by Orthodox canon law, so you are off the mark there.)
ReplyDeletePray for anyone that is exposed to the Episcopal organization and other protestant organizations.
Oh, cut it out.
ReplyDeleteYour "shock" is only for show to please your own egos.
Heteronomic thinking has you all in thrall.
I wouldn't place all these personages or figures as equals but I do recognize the attempt to go beyond the petty sectarian thinking that's crippling civilization.
You all should do some reading, lots of reading and become aware that there are traditions and ways of religions with some insights that could actually help you undestand your own tradition better.
After all, Melchisedech wasn't a Jew, nor were the Magi.
I think anonymous is wise. It's possible this iconostasis, with it's pantheon of pagan and anti-Christian religious figures, could help Christians understand our own tradition better.
ReplyDeleteThat part of our tradition where we go in and take an axe to idolatrous art. Or a torch.
Hey, Anon, I got an idea for you to do missionary work. You have the link to the "Muhammad" icon. Email it to Al Jazeera. Tell them it's to help them understand their own tradition better. You'll get back to us with the response, y'hear?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, regarding your response to my comment about the Father being "missing":
ReplyDelete1. The point was that it depicts other deities, but not the Father. I was not suggesting that the Father should be depicted in proper Orthodox iconography. I was suggesting that if you are going to go so far as to depict every other deity (certainly not permitted by the canons!), leaving out the Father is not done out of fealty to the canon but out of an ideological commitment, aka heresy.
2. Which canon prohibits the depicting of the Father? I am not aware of one that expressly forbids it. Certainly it is implied in the theology of St John Damascene, but I doubt its verbotten.
3. Once you find that canon, you'd better mail it to Mt Athos immediately so that they can start burning all their icons of the Trinity that depict the Father. You should probably carbon-copy Moscow too so that they can white-wash Christ the Savior Cathedral (http://www.scamconsult.com/Trinity.jpg).
snarky:off ;)
It makes an enormous contribution to interfaith understanding.
ReplyDeleteIt certainly helps me to understand better the motivations of the Muslims who got all uptight about Mohammed cartoons.
Anon @ 1/09/2011 8:24 PM,
ReplyDeletePleasing our own egos? Seriously? This from someone whose first response is to ASSume that none of us have read about other religious traditions?
How sad. Sadder still that you cannot take a serious look at why we might have objections to such an "iconostasis" (I use quotes because in reality, it is nothing of the sort, being instead an idolatrous monstrosity designed to equate the Triune God with the deities worshiped by the other traditions you reference). It makes one wonder whether it is you that should do the reading.
As to the initial post and photo, vomit.
Not merely heretical, but blasphemous. Anathema!
ReplyDeleteDisgusting.
ReplyDeleteRather, it would be disgusting if pagans did it, but Episcopalians?
Anathema!
Anon - I for one absolutely believe that any icons depicting the Father on Athos should be destroyed. I've worshipped in Christ the Savior and believe the image should be removed. Question: do you believe differently?
ReplyDeleteIt would be more constructive to think seriously about who exactly was *left out* of this great spiritual resource. I would have included icons of:
ReplyDelete1) Oprah
2) Elvis*
3) Kramer
4) Trigger
5) Sarah Palin
6) Betty Crocker
The list of great spiritual masters is of course endless.
*Who, like Elijah can represent the living and the dead?
Anon - I'm sure it will all be better once your type have their way and everyone just believes in some vague unitarian mushiness that makes them happy. Once there is no such thing as morality left in the world, once truth disappears and becomes an archaic concept and right and wrong are just whatever anyone wants it to be, I'm sure things will be much better.
ReplyDeleteIt is not 'sectarian' thinking that is crippling civilization (if we can call it such anymore - a 41% abortion rate in the NY, the enlightened capital of the western world?). Rather we see that the further we move away from the Light of Christ, the worse things are. I don't expect as saturated as you are with the world that you will understand, but I hope one day you will.
Not that I would be surprised if it is on the official website, but where is it listed on the official ECUSA website? I don't see it.
ReplyDeleteArcher - Most likelly because this bit of heretical Episcopal/Anglican rubbish originates in Mexico.
ReplyDeleteIf I may just offer this one point: at least puppets weren't involved. I think we Catholics still have a corner on creepy liturgical puppetry.
ReplyDeleteIt all makes my stomach do flip-flops. And did you see Christ's hand? Doesn't looks like a blessing as much as a Buddhist or Hindu way of holding the hands during prayer.
ReplyDeleteAngela
Thanks for the responses.
ReplyDelete