Facing possible schism, Methodists reject liberal assualt on morals
Whatever they did, schism was and remains the all but certain result. But for a change it is the revisionists who failed in their attempt at a hostile takeover of one of the larger mainline Protestant denominations.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that the revisionists have been defeated. It took them a while to take out the Episcopal Church, but they never give up.
Christ prayed that we may all be one, but not unity at any cost. Sometimes we must go our separate ways whenever the Unity of the Faith is at risk. We some of this in our own Orthodox world departures from the Faith on the part of the so-called progressives.
Briefly. I spent some time with a Methodist Church after leaving the Episcopal Church when it became clear that there was no longer room for folk like me.
Just now, I consider myself a Christian, but without loyalty to any particular denomination. Reform theology I find small minded. Rome has a lot to answer for. I am fascinated by the Eastern Church's theology, but find it's governance to be a bit of a mess. Still looking around.
Just now, I consider myself a Christian, but without loyalty to any particular denomination. Reform theology I find small minded. Rome has a lot to answer for. I am fascinated by the Eastern Church's theology, but find it's governance to be a bit of a mess. Still looking around.
Bruce Charlton had some interesting thoughts on this. He took a stab at Orthodoxy and concluded that no Christian for the last several centuries has experienced the Church qua Church, that is, the Church as the august, potent institution which existed from the Apostolic Fathers to the Renaissance. Having seen the byzantine, dysfunctional ecclesiology and ethnic insularity in Orthodoxy, he concluded that Orthodox conversion is basically LARPing and Christianity is between the individual and God--the Church doesn't really survive in its current form.
This contradicts the Lord's own words, but he's right so far as it goes: the Church simply does not occupy the same space in society, nor even the same mental space in its adherents, and in a world of post-scarcity, I don't think it ever will. No Christian alive today experiences the Church as the Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers, or even the Tsarist Russians ever did. I think that realization drove Charlton half-crazy. Of course, it's also hard to see the extremely prickly Bruce Charlton making it through a single coffee hour.
So if we reject Bruce's individualistic approach, the question becomes where is the Church? I say Orthodoxy is the true expression of the Faith, but even as an adherent I recognize we don't make it easy to convince people.
The other thing I see consistently and across time and history is that people yearn for the Faith expressed in their own human culture. The English like an "English" church, the Romanians a "Romanian," the Ethiopians an "Ethiopian" and on and on. But the official line is that there is a platonic, universalist form superseding all temporal ethnicity, supported by St. Paul's terribly misconstrued and completely ignored dictum: "in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek".
This idealistic vision has proven impossible, but the hierarchy still clings to it, as if there's still an Empire around homogenizing everybody into Greco-Roman culture. (And good luck explaining my own Antiochian jurisdiction to you).
God bless you in your search. We are on terra nova, and I have no answers and apparently neither do our bishops.
Yup. Since these people believe that there is not only one right answer, there's only one conceivable answer, they're not going anywhere any time soon. Watch for the illegal but "prophetic" gay ordination/wedding/both sooner rather than later.
Orthodoxy does have its problems, and yes we have some within the Church that would like to remake the gospel to fit their image and likeness. However they have many more hurdles to jump because there is always the consensus factor that does not support the liberal agenda. We see it being played out in Ukraine even as we speak. The false Nationalistic Church of Ukraine has the liberal agenda as part of its goal. Why else would politicians from Ukraine, USA, and Turkey invest so much time and effort. By the way, I am a convert to the Orthodox Faith, and am secure in the teachings and practices of the Faith, even though there are some definite problems: however I would not trade those problems for the ones that I see emerging in all other Christians confessions. How Christ will rescue all His Faithful ones as the time of Anti-Christ and Anti Gospel sweeps over the Churches of the future remains to be seen. I have read the end of the bible and Christ does conquer and protects His little ones.
So. a headline in this morning's local paper goes " 'We are not happy with the church.' Some Methodists in area vow to oppose result of vote on gay marriage, clergy". Scott Miller, president of Virginia Wesleyan University, is throwing away the book that guides UMC. Apparently, his colleagues who run the 93 UMC colleges & universities across the country are also opposed to the church's recent ruling.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that the revisionists have been defeated. It took them a while to take out the Episcopal Church, but they never give up.
ReplyDeleteReb, are you a Methodist yourself? My American ancestors were both Southerners and Methodists.
DeleteChrist prayed that we may all be one, but not unity at any cost. Sometimes we must go our separate ways whenever the Unity of the Faith is at risk. We some of this in our own Orthodox world departures from the Faith on the part of the so-called progressives.
ReplyDeleteBriefly. I spent some time with a Methodist Church after leaving the Episcopal Church when it became clear that there was no longer room for folk like me.
ReplyDeleteJust now, I consider myself a Christian, but without loyalty to any particular denomination. Reform theology I find small minded. Rome has a lot to answer for. I am fascinated by the Eastern Church's theology, but find it's governance to be a bit of a mess. Still looking around.
May God help you in your search!
DeleteJust now, I consider myself a Christian, but without loyalty to any particular denomination. Reform theology I find small minded. Rome has a lot to answer for. I am fascinated by the Eastern Church's theology, but find it's governance to be a bit of a mess. Still looking around.
ReplyDeleteBruce Charlton had some interesting thoughts on this. He took a stab at Orthodoxy and concluded that no Christian for the last several centuries has experienced the Church qua Church, that is, the Church as the august, potent institution which existed from the Apostolic Fathers to the Renaissance. Having seen the byzantine, dysfunctional ecclesiology and ethnic insularity in Orthodoxy, he concluded that Orthodox conversion is basically LARPing and Christianity is between the individual and God--the Church doesn't really survive in its current form.
This contradicts the Lord's own words, but he's right so far as it goes: the Church simply does not occupy the same space in society, nor even the same mental space in its adherents, and in a world of post-scarcity, I don't think it ever will. No Christian alive today experiences the Church as the Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers, or even the Tsarist Russians ever did. I think that realization drove Charlton half-crazy. Of course, it's also hard to see the extremely prickly Bruce Charlton making it through a single coffee hour.
So if we reject Bruce's individualistic approach, the question becomes where is the Church? I say Orthodoxy is the true expression of the Faith, but even as an adherent I recognize we don't make it easy to convince people.
The other thing I see consistently and across time and history is that people yearn for the Faith expressed in their own human culture. The English like an "English" church, the Romanians a "Romanian," the Ethiopians an "Ethiopian" and on and on. But the official line is that there is a platonic, universalist form superseding all temporal ethnicity, supported by St. Paul's terribly misconstrued and completely ignored dictum: "in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek".
This idealistic vision has proven impossible, but the hierarchy still clings to it, as if there's still an Empire around homogenizing everybody into Greco-Roman culture. (And good luck explaining my own Antiochian jurisdiction to you).
God bless you in your search. We are on terra nova, and I have no answers and apparently neither do our bishops.
Yup. Since these people believe that there is not only one right answer, there's only one conceivable answer, they're not going anywhere any time soon. Watch for the illegal but "prophetic" gay ordination/wedding/both sooner rather than later.
ReplyDeleteOrthodoxy does have its problems, and yes we have some within the Church that would like to remake the gospel to fit their image and likeness. However they have many more hurdles to jump because there is always the consensus factor that does not support the liberal agenda. We see it being played out in Ukraine even as we speak. The false Nationalistic Church of Ukraine has the liberal agenda as part of its goal. Why else would politicians from Ukraine, USA, and Turkey invest so much time and effort. By the way, I am a convert to the Orthodox Faith, and am secure in the teachings and practices of the Faith, even though there are some definite problems: however I would not trade those problems for the ones that I see emerging in all other Christians confessions. How Christ will rescue all His Faithful ones as the time of Anti-Christ and Anti Gospel sweeps over the Churches of the future remains to be seen. I have read the end of the bible and Christ does conquer and protects His little ones.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSo. a headline in this morning's local paper goes " 'We are not happy with the church.' Some Methodists in area vow to oppose result of vote on gay marriage, clergy". Scott Miller, president of Virginia Wesleyan University, is throwing away the book that guides UMC. Apparently, his colleagues who run the 93 UMC colleges & universities across the country are also opposed to the church's recent ruling.
ReplyDeleteAnd, so it goes.