Meeting with the dead. Or praying to the dead, like Mary Mother of Jesus. Or Saint Anne, mother of Mary ... And the difference, exactly is what? It’s all paganism. Let the Anglo-Catholics go. They’re still basically pagans, attempting to communicate with the dead. Please read Luke 16.-Bart Hall (From T-19)
The Infant God
6 hours ago
9 comments:
Christ is risen from the dead,
trampling down death by death,
and upon those in the tombs,
bestowing life!
. . . Or perhaps that doesn't apply to the saints (?) . . . .
But what would I know? I'm just a nutty pagan.
That quote is so sad, so poisonous. Too me, it's proof positive that Protestantism simply can't be thought of as being a part of the Body of Christ - they even demand schism with those "just men made perfect" who reign with Him.
I have placed a comment there, which some may find of interest.
Here's my comment:
'What is your interpretation of the “communion of saints” which I assume you say every week you believe in?'
Well, historically the phrase "communion of saints" in the Apostles Creed (in its final form a much later formula than the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, probably around the end of the 8th Century, although most of it comes from the so-called Old Roman Creed which can be traced back to the 3rd/4th centuries) is part of the latest stratum of that creed, and probably comes from the Greek (as Werner Elert in his *Eucharist and Church Fellowship in the First Four Centuries* demonstrated at some length) "ton hagion [genitive plural] koinonia* via the Council of Nimes of 396, and the meaning is "the communion of holy things" (cf. the medieval French translation "la communioun des sainct choses") rather than "the communion of holy persons." In other words, it professes belief in what conservative Lutherans call "closed communion" and which is the practice of both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church -- that the sacraments are to be conferred upon, and specifically the Eucharist given to, only to those who are members of the (visible and indivisible) Catholic Church.
Of course, not that I have any objection to requesting the intercession of Our Lady and the saints -- it is part of my daily prayer practice, and is both ancient and Catholic (cf. the ancient prayer "Sub tuum presidium confugimus ..." which can be traced back to the 3rd Century, and the scribbled petitions along the lines "Petre at Paule petite pro ..." on what is called the "red wall" in the old necropolis under St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, and which archaeologists believe was concealed around 165-175 AD by further building on and around it), and so is fully accordant with the Vincentian Canon of "quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est" to which numerous Anglicans have been wont to appeal.
Dead? Who is dead? Did Christ win or not? What is this strange Protestant soteriology that seems to hold that those who fall asleep in the Lord who is risen from the dead are nevertheless not alive? What sort of salvation is this wherein being joined to Jesus does not avail one of life immortal? What sort of Christianity is this wherein Christ is impotent against the consequences of the Fall?
Nothing trips up Protestants more than the Resurrection and not all Protestants, that word is just to broadly used. I have met plenty of Protestants in Orthodoxy claiming that TEC is the white version of the Greek Orthodox Church and as equally valid. This is always a teachable moment using reason and scripture. I always tell people that if asking for the intercessions of the Saints is going to cause you to worship them then by no means do that at the risk of peril to your soul but also don't project your personal issues on me. It really takes judging a persons internals based on a mistaken idea of what is taking place in the externals. Then there are the soul sleep people whom I believe have existed in Orthodoxy if I remember my studies correctly. Many Protestants believe the soul is asleep until the second coming where they will then be raptured from the grave and into the sky to meet the Lord in the air. This is popular amongst Baptist that I have met, especially independent fundamentalist.
One thing I can't understand is the anger on both sides of the argument that I have seen. I am pretty passionate but if a person chooses to ignore the evidence to support the proper veneration of the Saints then that is on them.
I work in the legal systems, inmates and petitioners "Pray" to the Judge (Your honor" or as in days passed "Your Worship"). I can tell you the inmates are not worshiping the judge.
It doesn't help when poorly catchecized Roman Catholics complain that after Vatican 2 there isn't time to worship Mary. I cringe when I hear that, imagine what that sounds like to a Protestant who has always heard second hand what "Catholics" believe.
Did you note Bart uses the extra biblical name of the Mother of the Theotokos? I wonder if he even recognizes that. Pity and pray for the guy. Saying Protestants can not be part of the body of Christ is just as helpful to changing his mind as his call us Pagans is to changing ours. If scripture tells us anything it is that that soldier while not part of Israel had more faith than any in Israel. Then we see those who were not called doing all sorts of things and Jesus says "if they are nor against us they are for us". After all if we have to count on our mental ability to grasp concepts and dogma 100% we are all in trouble. Christ perfects His people.
Veneration of the Saints (the Theotokos in particular) and the Epiclesis seem to throw Protestants for a real loop. But the Faith is a Whole--not one comma can be removed.
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