I find it curious that so many Anglicans who come to the realization that their communion is self destructing, fail to consider one of the most obvious potential answers to the question “wither now?” For those with a Protestant mindset and who seek “a church” there are no shortage of options. Pick one. But for those possessed of a catholic mindset, which is to say those seeking “The Church,” I would think one’s choices are essentially limited, Rome or Orthodoxy. And yet for all the debate (ad infinitum) of the pro’s and con’s of entering communion with Rome, it is passing far beyond rare to see an even remotely serious discussion of Orthodoxy. All of which leaves me to wonder why the more or less universal dismissal of the the world’s second largest communion, one with a credible claim to catholicity at least as sound as Rome’s? A dismissal,that again, appears to be so universally accepted as to not even warrant sober discussion.
The Feast of St John Chrysostom
18 hours ago
23 comments:
A). It is easier to find a Catholic parish.
B). "Orthodoxy" seems more concerned with its co-ethnics than anything else.
I am not saying that this means Rome is right. But I've read one too many conversion stories that ended up with people choosing Rome because they didn't want to drive three hours to the nearest parish that doesn't speak a lick of English. I guess San Diegans are lucky.
At least I've spared the young fogey of trotting out his usual, poorly punctuated Ctrl + V answers.
If one considers Anglicanism to be unimpaired in its
Catholicity, why would either option seem inappropriate or less Catholic? May not make much sense, but you are coming from a very different frame of reference. M
If Orthodoxy wants to recruit me, send me a message. I am listening and in discernment.
The Orthodox possibility does not need to be promoted. It has been there for centuries. Those who want to go there can go there.
One issue is that of the "interface". Unplug your keyboard, mouse and microphone from your computer - and then try to communicate with it.
The Orthodox solution is possible and viable for some. Inaccessible and hostile for most.
Make it attractive for us westerners!
Any of you western, trad oriented Anglicans in the Norfolk, VA area would be most welcome to visit our parish. Dormition of the Theotokos Orthodox Church. Services are all in english and some of us are even from here.
fr john
I started thinking about Orthodoxy after somebody on Stand Firm mentioned that Episcopalians would find themselves more theologically compatible (maybe not the phrase they used) with it than with Rome. Then I found a small student group at the University where I was working. Three years later, here I am.
My parish is 75 miles away, and it gets more and more difficult for me. But at the same time, a small group in my town has founded a mission and has Vespers weekly and Liturgy monthly; one of the Catholic churches in town generously offered the use of its chapel. As for ethnocentric, well we are that . . . a bunch of Mississippi Baptists, plus some Presbyterians, and Episcopalians,a few "cradle" and a few who had no church background.
As a former Protestant, it does seem to me that Orthodoxy doesn't as much outreach as it could.
Both ROCOR and the Antiochians have Western Rite Vicariates. Look them up. There are some wonderful people involved in them, and they have enjoyed the support of some much-loved Saints over the last 125 years or so. Are they small? Yes. But it isn't about numbers. I spent a year in a Western Rite monastery of ROCOR and loved being able to experience traditional western Liturgies and Divine Offices within the context of the Orthodox Faith.
As a former Anglican monastic and clergyman, who is now a monk in the Greek Archdiocese (but has spent time with other jurisdictions, too), I experience and acknowledge the frustration that sometimes accompanies inquiries into Orthodoxy. Yes, there is a strong "ethnic" orientation. But in fairness, it is also true that Anglicanism is very "ethnic" in its own right, and I know first-hand of people who were put off by that. Such cultural orientations are both a burden and a blessing, no matter what the culture of origin.
Can it be difficult, inconvenient, and even painful to enter the Orthodox Church? Yes, sometimes more, sometimes less. I had a terrible struggle and still get frustrated with issues such as language and relative inaccessibility (such as others have pointed out). But, in all honesty, it is not as difficult for us as it was for the million+ martyrs who were killed for the Orthodox faith in the last 100 years; nor as difficult as for the early Christians who struggled to be faithful in a hostile pagan society; nor even as difficult as for those who live under Islamic domination and persecution that has lasted from the 600's to our own day.
We all know the measures necessary to obtain the pearl of great price: Jesus was pretty clear about them - and walked in them himself, for our sake. The question is, are we willing to risk them?
I weighed my decision to become Orthodox for two years, actively studying and experiencing both it and Roman Catholicism before renouncing my Anglican ordination and making the switch. It was painful and costly - but no price of loss or inconvenience is too great when full communion with the Way, the Truth, and the Life is at stake. Seen in that light, for me at least, liturgical languages, felafel instead of cucumber sandwiches, and geographic inconvenience seemed small matters, indeed.
Schema-monk Theodore
There was a pretty incindiary anti-Orthodox comment on that blog entry. I commented and directed them to the Orthodox England website for references on Anglo-Orthodox tradition.
I post this here because I also wanted to advise others that aren't familiar with that website to check it out. If you're like me and have English roots, you'll be amazed at the information there. I highly recommend reading all of the Journals there.
My family was Orthodox and Anglican - back in the day, the Russian planted Churches pretty much allowed communion in both directions - standard advice for an Orthodox who moved to an area without a parish was to attend an Episcopal Church. All of which is to say that the distance is not that far for an Anglican who holds to the seven councils, not far at all.
Jason - your comment seems to be deleted. Anyone who believes the Russian schism was about two fingered crossing (blessed in the Russian Church today btw) is ignorant of history - the schism and reaction to it were tied to the revolt of Old Moscuvy to Petrine reforms. Theology was a subtext to the overall wrenching changes imposed on Russian society, which unsurprisingly provoked dramatic reaction. How that gets linked to a narrative about Byzantium as some kind of monolithic monster is almost tin foil hat material.
Jason & Anonymous
Yes, regrettably one runs into people making ignorant attacks. Dale is a well known Orthophobe who I banned from this blog some months ago for trolling. His vitriol hasn't changed much. I would not be surprised if he went over there and posted because he knew I would not allow him to post his nonsense here. Not much you can do about the ignorant and hateful but to pray.
In ICXC
John
Is ROCOR recognized as a legitimate expression of Orthodoxy in America? I have run into quite a bit of debate on that on the internet, and I am confused as to their status. Can someone clue me in?
Archer,
ROCOR is a semi-autonomous branch of the Russian Orthodox Church. They are in full communion with all of the canonical Orthodox jurisdictions. However there was a period of time where their relationship with the broader Church was severely strained and they maintained a self imposed isolation from most of the other Orthodox churches over a variety of issues, chiefly the squabble over the calendar and the communist persecution of the Church in Russia. For years ROCOR refused to recognize the Moscow Patriarchate as legitimate. Happily however that dark chapter in our history has passed and the breach healed. Just the other day the Primates of ROCOR and the OCA concelebrated the Liturgy in one of their churches.
ROCOR is still probably one of the more conservative of the Orthodox jurisdictions out there. But that appeals to me. I will however caution that ROCOR takes a rather strict Cypriatic approach to the Holy Sacraments. Those converting via ROCOR are normally received by Baptism and Chrismation. Whereas many of the other jurisdictions permit reception by Chrismation and Profession of Faith for those who had previously received a Trinitarian baptism in a confessional church with a sacramental understanding of Baptism (low church Evangelicals don't usually count there).
On a side note; one of your former co-religionists Fr. Al Kimel was recently received into the Church via ROCOR. You might also wish to take a look at the Antiochian Archdiocese which has a Western Rite Vicarate. I think I have one of their websites linked in the side bar of the blog. If my memory has not failed me Fr. Kimel is on loan from ROCOR to one of the Antiochian WR parishes.
Feel free to drop me a line or post here any other questions.
Yours in ICXC
John
Dale (Craik) now seems to be some kind of "Western-Rite Ethiopian Orthodox;" see the thread here:
http://catholicusanglicanus.wordpress.com/2011/12/12/looking-for-a-new-home/#comments
"Only recently the Ethiopian Orthodox accepted a few of us into their jurisdiction with a pure Roman rite and an approval of an Anglican-use liturgy as well, but before this venture could find solid ground, Archbishop Yeshaq died, and the individual in charge of the western rite missions was not really motivated to re-establish relations with the new leader; and one must mention that because of immigration and political issues the Ethiopian Church has internal problems. But, the reception and welcome granted by the Ethiopians was wonderful, what a change for those of us who had tried to deal with the Byzantines and their cultural pathologies."
Bill
That could explain a great deal regarding his fanatical Orthophobia.
In ICXC
John
I'm currently discerning a journey towards Orthodoxy, from Rome (for reasons which I will not rehearse here). I'm very lucky, perhaps, that I've found an Orthodox church (in England) which is welcoming, healthy, and has quite a mixed congregation, of Greeks, Slavs and English. I know that not all jurisdictions are the same and, indeed, neither are all parishes within a jurisdiction. I am well aware of the mistakes that were made (on all sides) on the "Pilgrimage to Orthodoxy". I know that the Orthodox Church is not perfect, and wicked things have been done by those who call themselves Orthodox. My rose tinted spectacles are well-offset by my jaundiced eye. I'm not daft.
I've also been blessed by meeting a wonderful priest who is helping me along the road. He is not a native Englishman, but has very good English and appears to understand exactly where I'm coming from and why I am doing what I am doing. He has refused to consider even beginning a formal period of catechesis until after Pascha, although we speak regularly and he is always ready to answer any questions I might have. His instruction to me a couple of months back, when I first started to attend Orthodox services was: don't think, don't study, just sit and pray, and soak it up for now.
I'm hoping to take early retirement in a couple of years, although if the world's financial markets are still depressed I might have to continue right up to 65. I'm an old man (my eyes are bent, my nose is knackered; as a character in a somewhat naughty Monty Python film said). I don't know if I will go all the way down the road towards Orthodoxy (even if I'm spared that long), but I'm grateful that I have found a community in which I feel comfortable, and wherein I can ponder all these things in my heart.
I wouldn't have posted this, and I'm unlikely to post again, but there have been so many negative comments made by converts, would-be converts and ex-converts (and which may be perfectly justifiable in the light of the situations that they experienced) that I felt I should add my own anecdotal evidence.
To the Anonymous from England who just posted a comment here. I am not certain why your comment did not appear on the blog. However I have a copy of it in my email box. If you would like me to repost it for you just drop me a line.
In ICXC
John
Please do publish my comment! I had javascript turned off, and I think that might have caused things to misbehave.
I guess the moderator there didn't like my comment. Probably just as well since I'm not interested in sparking an internet flame war with someone of ill will. Imagine if we all took that same line against Anglicans, Roman Catholics, etc. We'd get nowhere.
All of which is to say that the distance is not that far for an Anglican who holds to the seven councils, not far at all.
As a former Episcopalian weighing both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and finally (for a number of reasons) going with the latter, I agree. More superficially, on my first attendance at an Orthodox service there was a very familiar 'feel' to the Liturgy.
I have come to the view that the Western Rite is a necessary exercise of the Orthodox Church "taking back" Her own, but again, I'm personally content with the Byzantine rites of my parish.
I'm currently discerning a journey towards Orthodoxy, from Rome (for reasons which I will not rehearse here). I'm very lucky, perhaps, that I've found an Orthodox church (in England) which is welcoming, healthy, and has quite a mixed congregation, of Greeks, Slavs and English. I know that not all jurisdictions are the same and, indeed, neither are all parishes within a jurisdiction. I am well aware of the mistakes that were made (on all sides) on the "Pilgrimage to Orthodoxy". I know that the Orthodox Church is not perfect, and wicked things have been done by those who call themselves Orthodox. My rose tinted spectacles are well-offset by my jaundiced eye. I'm not daft.
I've also been blessed by meeting a wonderful priest who is helping me along the road. He is not a native Englishman, but has very good English and appears to understand exactly where I'm coming from and why I am doing what I am doing. He has refused to consider even beginning a formal period of catechesis until after Pascha, although we speak regularly and he is always ready to answer any questions I might have. His instruction to me a couple of months back, when I first started to attend Orthodox services was: don't think, don't study, just sit and pray, and soak it up for now.
I'm hoping to take early retirement in a couple of years, although if the world's financial markets are still depressed I might have to continue right up to 65. I'm an old man (my eyes are bent, my nose is knackered; as a character in a somewhat naughty Monty Python film said). I don't know if I will go all the way down the road towards Orthodoxy (even if I'm spared that long), but I'm grateful that I have found a community in which I feel comfortable, and wherein I can ponder all these things in my heart.
I wouldn't have posted this, and I'm unlikely to post again, but there have been so many negative comments made by converts, would-be converts and ex-converts (and which may be perfectly justifiable in the light of the situations that they experienced) that I felt I should add my own anecdotal evidence.
Any of your readers attend a western rite parish? I would be very interested to hear folks experiences.
One thing that struck me - the analytic philosopher Richard Swinburne from Oxford converted to Orthodoxy from Anglicanism in the 90s. His most striking comment was that it did not really change any of his beliefs from prior to his reception:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Swinburne
Food for thought.
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