The latest from the Holy Synod. It goes without saying that the usual suspects are throwing tantrums on the internet and elsewhere. One internet personality in particular, who has not been in the Church for a very long time but seems to be attracted to church politics like a moth to a candle, has directed some truly shocking invective at the Holy Synod. I could get into a protracted discussion of the matter... or I could keep it simple and cut right to what needs to be said. The gentlemen in question really just needs to shut up.
That was much easier and it felt better.
Prayers for the Holy Synod and all concerned.
Election Day USA
10 hours ago
27 comments:
It will be good if the Holy Synod can also release an encyclical or statement affirming that it condemns homosexual acts and abortion as immoral. There is more than one indication that Met. Jonah got the boot because he actually took the teachings of Orthodoxy on these points with the seriousness they deserve. Such a statement will help to quiet part of the tempest.
"The gentlemen in question really just needs to shut up."
Amen, amen, amen.
A lot of us who are much closer to this controversy and have actually been Orthodox for enough time to let the Chrism dry are holding our tongues. Then again, a lot of us didn't jump into the Church trying to push certain political angles and getting involved in episcopal controversies from day one.
Met. Herman participated in the March for Life also while he was in charge. And no OCA parish has blessed a gay marriage to my knowledge. Met. Jonah did nothing special in this regard. Our bishops need to be rocks and anchors who just teach what has always been taught. And they certainly don't need "fans"... just obedient spiritual children who follow their shepherds until they do something grossly immoral or incompetent. It's really that simple.
Met. Jonah got the boot because he was in a state of near continuous open war with the Holy Synod, the Metropolitan Council and the staff in Syoset. His hostility to homosexuality and abortion had absolutely nothing to do with it. He repeatedly thumbed his nose at the Synod and ignored its directives.
He was behaving like a mini-Pope. And the Synod finally couldn't tolerate it anymore. His efforts to drag the OCA into the Protestant Evangelical politicization of Christianity was in my opinion highly distasteful. But it was not a factor in his removal. And the OCA is unambiguously on the record with respect to both homosexuality and abortion.
"And the OCA is unambiguously on the record with respect to both homosexuality and abortion"
Bishop Mark (Forsberg) and a Deacon living together? Mark Stokoe openly living as 'spouse' to another man? The open communing of known and practicing homosexuals in some parishes? The open stance of Fr. Robery Arida and Fr. Ted Bobosh in favor of homosexuals? Some "unambiguity" you have there!
Bishop Mark is elderly. Elderly bishops often live with and are cared for by an Archdeacon. Many of the great saints of the Church had a cell attendant. I guess that means they spent their whole time having lots of gay sex. Regardless of the controversies surrounding their past, unless you have a nanny cam in the bedroom, you know *nothing* about what the bishop and his deacon do on a daily basis. When you don't know anything about a situation, the best option is to STOP TALKING.
It is the practice of Orthodox Christians to leave the discernment of the administration of the Eucharist to the father-confessor and to abstain from judgement of others.
I also have to reiterate what Anaxagoras said - it is never, ever appropriate to try to discern the possible sins of another. Nor does Orthodox Christianity suggest that two men or two women cannot live together. I know of two men that live together in celibacy and are a wonderful example of Orthodox Christian life. I also know that I am the first among sinners: that is enough for me.
I am curious pp: how long have you been Orthodox? Does your spiritual father bless your anonymous attacks on internet blogs?
I think one needs to differentiate between private sin (which is none of our business unless we are the persons priest) and the occasional lapse in discipline from church doctrine and teaching. The OCA and all Orthodox churches are crystal clear on the subjects. I see no need to issue another encyclical letter on those issues. Perhaps we should issue such letters against drunkenness, which i suspect is fairly common in many quarters, probably more so than sodomy. Or maybe avarice. Or how about gossip? That's one that I think could stand a refresher for the faithful.
In reference to John's fine post, I only wish he had gone ahead and named names. Rod Dreher does not know what he is talking about and should shut up already.
Dear Pro-Pravoslavie,
First, at the last All-American Council in Seattle, every bishop voted openly and plainly for the resolution “On the Sanctity Marriage”. I watched them, and I repeat, every single bishop there voted for the resolution, which resolution passed, text is on pp 77 – 78 of the pdf here:
http://oca.org/PDF/16thAAC/16thaac-minutes.pdf
in addition to which there are the following, which remain as OCA statements on the subject:
http://oca.org/holy-synod/statements/the-10th-all-american-council/synodal-affirmations-on-marriage-family-sexuality-and-the-sanctity-of-life
and:
http://oca.org/holy-synod/encyclicals/on-marriage
If you or anyone else chooses to believe mostly anonymous provocateurs and propagandists on Monomakhos, whilst dis-believing the plainly stated convictions of the Bishops in the exercise of their teaching office, that is your choice, but I do not think it a “pro-Orthodox” choice at all.
There are in fact, no actual indications that these issues were what caused Met. Jonah to “get the boot” as you say. You then reference several personal issues. Fr. Bobosh's words, for instance, were grossly de-contextualized. It is alleged that the Bishop and Deacon you reference have an improper relationship, among other allegations involving one or both of them, but when Met. Jonah had direct authority over that situation as locum tenens of the South, he did not act. It is alleged that communing of practicing homosexuals takes place at the DC Cathedral, which was Met. Jonah's primatial cathedral until last Friday, and precisely those who make this allegation also allege that Met. Jonah's response to the situation was insufficient. When Met. Jonah was locum tenens of the Mid-west, he did not act against Stokoe. Bp. Matthias, however, did act against Stokoe, and not one bishop of the OCA stood against Bp. Matthias on that issue. Bp. Matthias, however, was one of the bishops who thought that Met. Jonah needed to resign. I do not believe that simply making an allegation, let alone an anonymous internet allegation, means that what would ordinarily be a private pastoral issue needs to be endlessly discussed in internet for a by further anonymous ones. I simply point out the above facts because they are the points you provide, and if, IF, IF, they show a lavender mafia, THEN they do not show Met. Jonah as a threat to said lavender.
Rather, the indications are that the culture war angle in reference to the Metropolitan's difficulties with the Synod is and has always been a deliberate diverting distraction.
Fr Yousuf
Fr. Yousuf: hear, hear!
Glad to see someone is paying attention to the truth. Frankly, I'm tired of the lies and fabrications about the OCA's Holy Synod.
Thank you, Fr. Yousuf.
Conspiracy theories are always much more fun than actual facts, and especially more fun than the hard work of our daily salvation.
We must continue to pray, for our bishops, our priests, each other and ourselves that God would have mercy on us all, sinners.
Dreher's not Orthodox anymore? I haven't read him regularly for some time so I had no idea.
Rod Dreher is definitely still Orthodox. I don't know where you got that idea.
I get very tired of comments disparaging converts. Either converts are fully Orthodox Christian or Orthodox Christianity is a farce and we should all go to Rome. There's even an internet meme out there that makes fun of and puts down converts. Makes a guy feel really part of the gang.
I don't know what happens in Syosset, and I don't know that anyone does. And this is the problem. There is no openness and transparency there. The Bishops could be doing a bang up job, but they never say anything. The ONLY news we ever get is the latest Bp to be embroiled in scandal or the latest Bp to be deposed, etc. That's it. The rest are carefully crafted neutral political statements that don't say much at all really. So I think the Bishops might want to work on their PR. Granted, they shouldn't have to. We should be able to trust out Bishops. However again, see above. We are still recovering from the last one, and here we are within a few years looking for yet another.
My own thought is to ignore it all, but in the age of information word travels fast, and most importantly it travels to potential converts. Potential converts (horrors! converts!) who may never set foot in an Orthodox Church because they read the latest scandal and saw all of the inter- and intra- jurisdictional backbiting and politicking. Not helpful.
Of course I'm a convert, so my opinion probably doesn't count.
I am a very happy convert, and you know what, I don't need to be told how happy they are to see me. I don't want to tell them how to run the church. I serve on my parish council b/c they asked me for my help, and I help with the catechumens b/c, again, they asked me for my help. But I know nothing about how this thing runs on the larger scale. I don't know what it's like to be an aged bishop who has seen communism replaced by consumerism.
So I pray for them, and I don't ever want to try to mold them into my former, evangelical image. I don't need this to be an American democracy or a Western church. I came to Her because of what she is. And sometimes I agree that converts should be seen and not heard. But I say that as a veteran of more than one internal parish and diocesan conflict.
Anonymous,
The internet meme you speak of us probably "Hyperdox Herman," which I find hilarious. And the reason why it is so funny is because it is true. The problem, strictly speaking, is not the fact that one is a convert. The problem is what you do with that. My priest is fond of telling a story about a lady who approached a counter at a Russian church conference where they were offering pamphlets explaining the various services and practices. One was about the offering of kolliva for the departed. This lady (American of German descent) started going on and on and on in a really LOUD obnoxious way about how we'd never get converts in the Church as long as we kept insisting on using Russian terminology like "kolliva" and how the Church was trying to be an enclave of Russian culture and how all this stuff was unnecessary... long story short, she spent quite a while yelling even though everyone was just looking upon her placidly. When she finally ran out of breath, one of the attendants at the table simply smiled and said, "Kolliva is a Greek word."
No one is making a general call for all Orthodox converts in America to suddenly become Russophiles or Dostoevsky scholars. Well, maybe some people are making that call, but my point is this:
If you take the Lord's Incarnation seriously, and you truly believe that the Church is the *Body of Christ*, you should consider that the Faith becomes "incarnationally" "fleshed out" in real human cultures, with real human people. But this doesn't happen quickly. The Church is a tree with Semitic roots, a Hellenistic trunk, and Syrian, Romanian, Slavic, and yes, even American branches. And you don't have to be ashamed of who you are or be trying to imitate an Eastern European to understand that the American branch is still a tiny little green shoot in the grand scheme of Orthodox history and that we have A LOT to learn from the people who have been living out the Faith for thousands of years. That all seems like common sense, so what's the problem?
continued...
The problem is that for some strange reason (maybe it is the internet, maybe it is the wealth of translated material available, maybe it is the fact that Orthodoxy is such a small, weird, and cultural irrelevant pond in this country so any obnoxious voice sounds twice as loud...), but when new converts decide they have opinions, they are usually wrong. And they are usually REALLY loud. In almost any other setting, the new guy is expected to learn. The person fresh out of medical school is expected to be the intern, the LEARNER and not start a public campaign about why the floor's chief surgeon is always wrong. The new guy who just started volunteering for the local Democratic party in his town is expected to volunteer and help out with campaigns, not try to overthrow the leader and proclaim the reasons why he'd be a better president. But not so in good ole McAmOrthodoxy. Nope, here the converts all start political blogs, start getting personally involved in the Synod's politics (sometimes to an embarassing degree, especially when they get caught- let's face it, that's why Dreher and the people in Texas were upset), and before you know it, they are in seminary. To be placed in a LEADERSHIP POSITION. Without even spending years (at least 10 or 12) having their Orthodox faith tested in the fires of real life QUIETLY and PATIENTLY! Most of the time it is before they've even had the life experience and intellectual maturity to prove that they wouldn't be a complete failure OUTSIDE the Church. Yes, that is a situation worthy of ridicule.
I hope that explains why some of the joking about converts takes place. If they didn't engage in ridiculous posturing and attempts at teaching without even being exposed to a fraction of the Orthodox world, then the jokes wouldn't come so often. And yes, being Orthodox is being a part of the Orthodox WORLD. American exceptionalism **and** American Orthodoxy's exceptionalism be damned. We are a tiny drop in a 300 million strong family. When the newest member of a family, for example the immature young guy your daughter brings home for the first time so he can meet the family, starts to dictate how you should do things in the house, the temptation is to run him out with a broom. Don't be that guy. "We have to teach the lax ethnics which part of their faith is legitimate and which part is cultural baggage and superstition! We can't do stuff like that! The laity needs to be involved! We need to form a new committee! We need to vote! This is not Russia! This is America!"
No. This is Orthodoxy. This is the ***global*** Church. The fact we're in America just means that it is the American expression of the Church which is still too young to contribute as loud of a voice as it has been doing. I know that Americans feel that they have something to add to every debate and every problem in every culture even though we are a baby country a little over 200 years old and still learning how to walk. But it doesn't work in Church. Once we have a few more saints on our calendar and a more uniform parish life with less influence from extremes on all sides, then we'll talk.
That's what I was trying to say. I really blame our culture here in America. We are a young nation, yet we act as if we're ancient Greece. We are consistently the loudest on the block about so many things. Sometimes we're right, but sometimes, not so much.
I also blame American Evangelicalism, where it is not uncommon for a brand-new baby Christian (who prayed the prayer and that's all you need to do) to be immediately elevated to some position of teaching or leadership b/c they have a great story to tell or their excitement (however right it may be) is confused with depth of faith.
We really just need to listen for awhile.
all of that is very nice but at the end of the day we still have two stumbling blocks to new potential converts. Because of the actions of a few (who would be the same in any culture) they will be left with the impression that the cradle have little use for new converts, and secondly that the OCA and other jurisdictions are scandal upon scandal (with not much in the way of what happened from the leadership) - when we aren't busy arguing with another each other. You all read a lot into what I said, and that's fine. I don't recall anything about voting in the Church or 'Its America not Russia' in what I said. Anyway, say what you will, but bottom line is neither laughing at converts or scandal and misbehavior are at all helpful to the mission of the Church.
Do you realize how much scandalous stuff goes in the in "old" countries? If the mission of the Church is to make saints, then going chicken little whenever synods of bishops do what we don't want them to do is certainly not helping the cause. Neither is announcing to the non-Orthodox, "Hey, our bishops are being bad! Come look!!!" And since it is mostly (recent) converts with internet presences disproportionate to the amount of sense they make who are doing the most yelling, chiding them might help to get a little less hot air out of them.
And that might help the mission of the Church.
OK I think we are wandering off topic here. This is not a convert vs cradle thread. I'm a convert myself. Converts have much to offer, but one needs to be careful about jumping into church politics or getting drawn into scandals and obsessing over the sins of others. For probably everyone on this thread and Rod Dreher, what's going on now is way above our paygrade.
Anonymous:
As regards the meme- the meme was started by a convert, I (a convert) was an early contributor to the meme, and pretty much all the contributors to the meme have been converts. The point of the meme wasn't "oh, the horrible converts" as opposed to "oh, the horrors of someone being an intellectual expert on a matter of the heart".
Now, for the matter at hand: I don't know what politics, if any, might be at play here. All I know is this: the two Metropolitans before JONAH were models of corruption. Metropolitan JONAH, whatever his faults, is directly responsible BECAUSE of his many high-profile activities (in my case, his speech at the inauguration of the ACNA) for my own conversion. Metropolitan JONAH will be missed, by me.
Mike
Off topic, yes, but very illustrative and amusing.
Another convert here, of six years, who this year (to my utter and lasting amazement) was ordained to the diaconate. I make very few public comments about Orthodoxy. I fast (badly), pray (badly) and give alms (badly). I am obedient (badly) to my bishop, my spiritual father and my parish priest, under whom I serve. I find Hyperdox Herman quite funny. Some are funnier than others, but most of them make me smile. I see Hyperdox Hermans among both convert and cradle alike. I'm probably one myself, sometimes.
The situation in the OCA (not my jurisdiction) is, I humbly suggest, the topic of prayer and inner conversion, not of speculation and gossip.
The comments on this page are among the most level headed and realist that I have seen online regarding these recent events. Speaking as a life-long Orthodox Christian coming from an Orthodox family with close ties to the Eastern Catholic community, I have to say that many who are frothing at the mouth regarding the resignation and Metropolitan Jonah have me both confused and angry. Dreher and others have continually portrayed an Orthodoxy in which Metropolitan Jonah was a latter day John the Baptist proclaiming a message seldom, if ever, heard in an Orthodox Church. Quite the contrary. The words of Metropolitan Jonah regarding inter-faith cooperation, abortion or marriage which are often quoted at length are neither odd nor foreign to most of us who have been in the mainstream Orthodox Church throughout our lives. Our Bishops, our parish priests, our teachers have proclaimed these truths forcefully all of our lives. Met. Jonah's efforts to form a common bond among varying Christian entities is not unique to him either. From the earliest years of the post-war American Orthodox episcopacy beginning with the Greek Archbishop of New York, Archbiship Athenagoras (later the Ecumenical Patriarch) through his successors, the late Archbishop Iakovas (remember the famous Life cover of him with Dr. King at Selma?) through the current Archbishop, Dimitrios and many, many other Orthodox bishops and priests too numerous to mention the message has been the same. The attitude of people like Dreher astounds me and frankly, offends me. Learn more about us before assuming that the message is different rather than merely being the same message of Truth in a new wrapper. Learn about the five decades of progress made between the American Catholic community and the American Orthodox community through the North American Theological Consultation which has produced volumes of work over the years regarding that which unites, rather than divides us as Christians. The problems within the OCA are longstanding and difficult to understand, but they do not break down along modern American partisan lines.
Yes, Orthodoxy Christianity is a conservative faith. BUT, its conservatism is not the same as popular American political conservatism. Therein lies the rub.
Mp. Jonah was in over his head. He was a poor administrator at his monastery and that weakness got magnified in his current position. He is a Christian, but not a good abbot nor archbishop.
The Synod pushed Jonah out because he communicates like a wet paper bag, he has a marvelous ability to go flying off on his own like an ADHD 3-year old, and he could not be trusted because of it.
I'm not saying he's a bad guy. I pray for him. But his incompetence made him dangerous.
Rod Dreher and Geo. Michalopolus and the rest of the Byzantine Southern Baptist Convention are just making crap up because they can not, even in their imaginations, believe that Jonah is in any way flawed.
On the contrary; he is exceptionally flawed.
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